So they probably were aware of something very special about her at that time. Like for example, how does one reconcile the following statements, I am the way, the truth, and the life, from our blessed Lord in John 14:6 and Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope, emphasis on both claiming to be our life? And Id like my little mini rebuttal, very quick points, Matt, that is a topic for another debate. And even there, he admitted it doesnt explicitly talk about Mary. So does that mean that Mary could have had daughters because it says, the son of Mary? The Morning Ritual with Garret Lewis. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button right now. When Matthew 1:25 writes, Joseph kept Mary a virgin until she gave birth to a son, the specific Greek words [foreign language 00:02:06] when translated until, is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a change in condition. If you guys want, I just had a dialogue with Steve and Jeff on their channel. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" - Psalm 139: 13,16 I always wanted to have five kids, but I met and married my So in Mark chapter one, verse 19, it says, James is the son of Zebedee, and it uses the Greek definite article. So the Immaculate Conception does not contradict scripture then. The word savior is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a savior of sins. But in the infancy narrative, were just talking about the birth of the firstborn in accord with The Mosaic Law. And Steve and I also both agreed that the universality of things like sin or death dont preclude exceptions. Steven is related to James P Christie and Helen J Christie as well as 1 additional person. Well, of course not. He has authored over 170+ books.Andrews is the Chief Translator of the Updated American Standard Version (UASV). Yeah. Agreed. And this is what I did in the opening statement. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. She goes on to say, My spirit rejoices in God, my savior for or because he has regarded the lowest state of his handmaiden. Mary then describes how God saves people from threats in this life by exalting the lowly or feeding the hungry. Communication, Canon, and Unbeliever Knowledge of God, Reformed Apologist (Ronald W. Di Giacomo). Okay. Perhaps John witnessed this event and then told others or this may have been given to John through some other kind of revelation. I would ask him this question, you can answer it now or some other venue, who was the first Christian, like author, father, theologian, who held to the same theology that Steve does? Well start with an easy one, the Bodily Assumption of Mary. He says, this is a question for Steve. Search. And weve also addressed that frequently at catholic.com. After an in-depth study of the writings of the Church Fathers, both Steve and his wife Janet converted to the Catholic Church. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. Can you repeat the question real quick? Oh, absolutely. You mean the son of John? I addressed this a little bit during the debates of the specific Greek word [inaudible 01:21:19], which is translate full of grace or highly favored, even Jimmy Akin from Catholic answers that. But they disagree about that because at least infant baptism, for many Protestants, at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, even if Scripture is silent on the matter. And so it would fulfill the promise in Philippians 3:21 that says, Our bodies, lowly bodies, will be transformed like his heavenly body, Christ. However, in Acts 26:5 Paul tells King Agrippa that he lived (past tense) as a Pharisee. And Steve has not ruled that out. He might say that its unlikely, he doesnt accept it, but theres no contradiction also if she is thankful to God for being preemptively saved from sin. And itll be really quick. (Hebrews 11:35b, 2 Maccabees 6,7), Is the Apocrypha or Deutero-Canonical Books Part of the Bible? That children at a young age do not commit personal sins. Were were talking about whats actually used in the New Testament, because even the New Testament writers would deviate from the Septuagint occasionally, because they would use a better translation. So I would actually disagree with Cardinal Newman to be deep into history as deceased to be Protestant. Heres one, Trent, I dont like and I wonder what you think about it. . That sums it up. Thank you and God bless everyone. You got five minutes, right? Trent models that approach each. But the immaculate conception was declared 15 years or so before that. Well, again, this is the exception. It was only four yards short of the all-time NFL record. Some people dont die at all. So Steve even admits that Jesus is an exception to the claims about the universality of sin. But were not debating whether the Bible teaches the immaculate conception. Man commits idolatry when he honors and reviews a creature in place of God. But the problem with this argument is that it says in Luke 2:22-24, that its offered for their purification. So Mary being assumed into heaven, dying, which is the majority view among theologians, does not show that she had sin. They go into the glory of God. And in the Reformation, the two doctrines that came out of it was Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. Edward John Carnell - was a prominent and influential Christian theologian and apologist. Are you going to answer the question, does it describe her giving birth to anyone else or say she gave birth to anyone else? Instead, they describe Ezra bringing scrolls to Jerusalem and a process of later works being written that gradually developed into what they call a relatively complete Jewish Bible. But they also acknowledge some Jews accepted the deuterocanonicals as Scripture and that many Christian communities embraced these works as part of the Bible.. So it must be used in some other way. He did exactly what Jesus did. Sure. Indeed, the Talmudic tract Sanhedrin 100B refers to rabbis with-drawing Sirach, or declaring it to be no longer inspired and thus withdrawn from synagogue reading. Would you agree with Jerry [Maditix 01:04:38] that the assumption of Mary was an eyewitness account just as Jesus ascension was? First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. Thats why Protestant scholars since the nineteenth century have taken the position Herbet Ryle did in saying the legend about the Great Synagogue was wholly untrustworthy., Christie also cites Geoghan and Homess book The Bible for Dummies in favor of the Great Synagogue, but on page 11 the authors make no mention of the Great Synagogue or of Ezras canon being identical to todays Protestant Old Testament. Were going to move into seven-minute rebuttals. Origen and Melito present lists that modern scholars recognize are of Jewish origin and so they lack the deuterocanonicals, but even these lists are missing books such as Esther and Lamentations. I like you Trent. H. So Steve is saying that the word adelphi, which means sister. Isaiah 49:26 describes God as savior and Redeemer echoed in Galatians 4:4-5. So this next question is for you, Steve. Though, I think that is a salvation issue actually. Sep 29, 2021. Going forward, then, Mark Sorry, Steve tries to say that Mary committed a sin in Mark Three when she and the brothers of the Lord go to see him, but the text doesnt say anything about Mary doing anything sinful. I mean, you got me on the spot. So much the same way Jesus was free from original sin and personal sin, yet when he was on the cross, its not like the nails couldnt go through his hands because hes free from sin, so hes immortal. Calvin did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Top podcast episodes Protestants disagree. Now Steve says, Well, Luke wouldve used, monogenes, only begotten. On the one hand he could show the Bible teaches the opposite of these dogmas regarding Mary as an individual. Had Adam not sinned he would be alive today, as well as Mary had she not inherited Adam sin nature, a view shared by Catholic Answers and the Second Council of Orange. Should we baptize babies or not? EDWARD D. ANDREWS (AS in Criminal Justice, BS in Religion, MA in Biblical Studies, and MDiv in Theology) is CEO and President of Christian Publishing House. And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. The claim that Mary did not give birth to other children because Jesus is called the son of Mary. The proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believe that which is false. No one ever says the gift of prophecy or divine revelation had returned after being absent for several centuries. He became sinner. In 1993, Christie set a Bills record by kicking a 59-yard field goal in a regular-season game. Because the word adelphi would imply that they Its normal use would be that you have the same parents, at least one of the same parents. In Super Bowl XXVIII, Christie set a Super Bowl record by kicking a 54-yard field goal. And number two, when it comes to veneration, worship, honor, give someone the respect that theyre due. We are going to move into a time 30 minutes of Q&A. Luke 2:7 describes Jesus as the firstborn of Mary, although the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:11] translated firstborn, can indicate firstborn opening the womb and is used this way in the New Testament. But I think Steve would agree the word adelphos typically means a person has the same biological father and mother and of course, Steve doesnt believe that because he believes Jesus has no biological father. In that day, you will surely die. Which he eventually did. In fact, Josephus recorded a Zechariah being killed in the temple thirty-five years after the crucifixion (Jewish War 4:5:4). What you ended up finding also from this, as well as other dogmas, when you go back to it, you find a lot of these dogmas originating in apocalyptic literature. My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold Your Mother. I was citing Baukham on that point, and [Greek 00:52:31] is just not used in the New Testament, so its just not a common word. As Trent Horn stated in his debate against Dr. James White, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. Thats Sola Scriptura, folks, and I agree with him as did the Apostle Paul and the first century Roman Church. Okay. But maybe are there other verses that have talked about that Mary gave birth to other children and so she would not be a perpetual Virgin? I dont know. It refers to a natural sister as well or a biological [inaudible 01:15:42]. And also I know others whove done a lot of work on this. This was the view that St. Augustine said, when he said that in Psalm 69:5, the mother is not married, but Israel and the brethren are the other sons of Israel who spurn him. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. Well talk about adelphos more in the rebuttal period. If you want to go more into that, my book, The Case for Catholicism has a chapter on the immaculate conception. So its not saying that he died. Or Enoch and Elijah who never died because they were assumed alive into heaven. The resolution for this debate is the Marian Dogmas contradict scripture. And I think thats something that we do find. Its [inaudible 01:14:35]. Wouldnt they have noticed that their child up to the age of 12 or 13, however, she was, that she had not committed a single sin? Do it, or dont do it. And in this case, infallibility would only cover the definition that Mary was conceived free from original sin and free from sin her entire life. Of course, that is not what we are debating today. General Manager New South Wales MRC Australia Sep 2017 - Dec 2018 1 year 4 months. And the other concern, again, that I have is from Lumen Gentium, which is a Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, that it is binding to Catholics that even if a Roman pontiff does not speak ex cathedra, it is binding. The point I want to raise there is that adelphi has the same semantic range as adelphos. So multi-part question here. While scripturally affirming Jesus is the son of God, they contradict scripture by claiming that Jesus is Michael the archangel, because scripture affirms Michael is a created being while Jesus is the eternal deity. Your generous donations are tax-deductible. Since he is the uncreated sinless deity conceived by the holy spirit. Thank you very much, Trent. He was preceded in death by both his parents. I bet maybe you would kneel before it in prayer, you would weep to see that through this means our salvation was procured. So as far as I know, I dont know offhand but that doesnt mean that its not being used. This next question comes from [Mcart 01:28:41] 1977. Jude 9 talks about the archangel, Michael, contending with the devil disputing about the body of Moses and taking the body of Moses, the dead body of Moses, that being assumed into heaven. Hes referred to the son of Joseph in Johns gospel. How do you understand Luke 1:28s title for Mary as full of grace in the Greek, literally meaning something like having been made completely full in regards to the immaculate conception? G.K. Chesterton - famous author, philosopher, theologian, apologist. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. When the New Testament writers wish to convey female non-sibling relatives, such as Elizabeth and Mary, they chose other Greek words, such as [foreign language 00:01:39] or [foreign language 00:01:39] So also, Luke 14:12 and 21:16, where the evangelist uses different Greek words to distinguish relatives from brothers. He was put on a cross. And yeah, I would just encourage others, Ive always said this, I dont see debates as a way to end an issue. But even at that, the Greek word for adelphi, in the Old Testament, when its used, its used even in a translation, not to mean anything other than a biological sister or a believing sister, like the sister nations of Israel and Judah. If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly. Galatians 2:21. Im not sure why she would be surprised when told that shes going to have a son, given that under Jewish law, she and Joseph were free to engage in conjugal relations even right at that moment after the angel had left. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. Now Steve has said, Well, they were assumed into heaven alive and if Mary died, she would not be assumed into heaven. But thats not the case. You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. (Horn V. Christie). Because I know every one of these points you could go back and forth on a lot, but lets try to keep it to just the main response and then a response to the response. Well, I would say that it contradicts it because if she was indeed sinless, Mary would not have been bodily assumed into heaven for the reasons I stated in my opening statement. I dont know if I could answer the question definitively. Steve Ray was the third of five children in a family that became Baptist in the 1950s. Given that the church both east and west had access to the same scriptures as us and were closer to the time of the apostles, how do you justify the church being in era for so long on a number of the Marion doctrines? We believe all Christian's should be able to defend their faith in God & Jesus of Nazareth. So the protestant reformers like Luther and Zwingly, did they believe Mary was a perpetual Virgin and were they committed to Sola scriptura? On the signing, Christie pointed out that one reason for joining the team was "basically doing Michael (Clemons) a favour" as a former college teammate and that it was tentatively for one game. Im also going to send Matt a link to my other channel, verasage.us/stevechristie. So Steves defending the affirmative. Many of them did not believe in him. For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. But lets have this be the last response to a response, because then Im going to ask Trent to question, then you are going to get to respond to that. In week 9 vs. the New York Jets, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (20, 29, & 34 yards). But hell say we can believe in that exception because of whats come from divine revelation in sacred Scripture. Geoffrey Stephen Christie (born November 13, 1967)[1] is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League (NFL), who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. Let no one dwell in their tents. This is later applied in Acts 120, but not to a group of people, to an individual, namely Judas. So Ill send you a link, you could put that [inaudible 01:35:07] as well. If it was, the New Testament writers would not deviate from it occasionally and use their own Greek translation. It is currently the longest field goal ever made in Super Bowl History. Christie claims the Hebrew canon was closed by Ezra and other learned men at an event called the Great Synagogue. Gordon Clark - Christian philosopher, apologist, and theologian. And I really appreciate that you are arguing against Catholicism based on what she teaches, right? However, Paul cant be saying that every single person commits personal sins because the Bible itself contradicts this. . Not everything we believe is found explicitly in sacred Scripture. The sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar, both from the loins of Abraham, were both blessed and became great peoples the Jews and the Arabs. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. Yeah. If Mary was a immaculate conceived, why would Joseph and her kinsfolk who knew her-. Did they believe that the doctrine of Marys perpetual virginity violated the authority of scripture? Some of these questions are for both of you but it might be better if I ask a question, just one of you respond since we have so many. The fact that Mary died does not show that she had original sin or that she inherited original sin or that she committed a personal sin. One, ones natural sister, such as a sister of the same parents or a half sister or, two, a believing sister, such as a Christian sister. So was Jesus free from sin and he also died? It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Did their authors believe God had stopped speaking decades or centuries earlier? Okay. But those who knew the family, why he is called the son of Mary is interesting, and a good explanation is that he was born of Mary, and that Mary was Josephs second wife. Another piece of evidence against Christies claim that divine revelation ceased during the time of the deuterocanonical books is that the people of Jesus time believed there were contemporary prophets who spoke on behalf of God, such as John the Baptist and Jesus. If Luke was communicating Jesus was Marys only child, he wouldve used the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:55] translated only begotten, rather than [foreign language 00:04:57] like he did elsewhere in his gospel, such as in Luke 7:12, 8:42 and 9:38.And in John 3:16, where Jesus is the only begotten son of God, meaning the only one. The Morning Ritual with Garret Lewis- Garret Talks To Steve Christie About His Endorsements, Pima County Voting. Two individuals share the same biological mother and father? January 07, 1964. So then the word adelphos could also apply in this case to describe people that they have the same adoptive father, Joseph, but different mothers, Josephs first wife and his second wife. Because I believe that, I think Steve would agree, baptism is at least an ordinance we ought to carry out. Steve Christie Geoffrey Stephen Christie Position: K 6-0 , 195lb (183cm, 88kg) Born: November 13 in Oakville, Ontario (Age: 55-107d) College: William & Mary Weighted Career AV (100-95-. And as Jimmy Akin has pointed out, if Mary needed to be sinless in order to give birth to the Messiah, then her mother would have to be sinless and her mother would have to be sinless all the way back to Eve and so it doesnt work. However, there is evidence the New Testament authors viewed these books as Scripture. And it is from the pure fiction of the proto evangelium of James, Odes of Solomon, the Ascension of Isaiah, the Transitus of Pseudo-Melito, and other false gospels and apocryphal literature, some attached with anathemas by early popes for entertaining these works. However, he should have cited what Jimmy said immediately before that quote: It wasnt entirely clear to every group of Jews exactly what books belonged in the Old Testament., Akin goes on to write that Jesus and the apostles went a bit further than the Pharisees on the issue of the canon. Nice to have you. SeanMcDowell.org. So probably honestly that one. St. Jerome, who was skeptical of the manuscript history behind these books, even tells us that at the Council of Nicaea the deuterocanonical work of Judith was considered part of the canon of Scripture. And so when we look to Mary, we always follow the words that she uttered to the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana, Do whatever he tells you. And Jesus tells us to honor our father and mother, and we should honor his father and mother. Steve Christie - Apologetics315 Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? I think it will be. By that argument, St. Anne would also have to be immaculately conceived. The Greek root is used in Matthew 1:21 to describe Jesus who will save his people from their sins. Trent had mentioned about Elijah and Enoch being assumed to heaven. I say this by way of concession, not of command. In fact, the term original sin like immaculate conception is not found in the Bible or in the church fathers until the time of St. Augustine. They also didnt believe the Gospels or other New Testament documents were inspired, so they dont have a great track record when it comes telling us what is and isnt Scripture. Even Trent has argued that the word does not mean to be immaculately conceived. Jesus does not rebuke her. . Its a word that really should be used strictly for God. Okay, so now we are going to move into 10-minute rebuttals. Okay. And then take heart in knowing that these teachings about Mary dont contradict Scripture, and then we can further infer and try to understand what are the sources of divine revelation. When Ive seen people in the chat say things like, Wouldnt you make your mother perfect? I dont like that argument. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. So here, Mary can be talking about salvation from threats in this life, not sin. Okay. We use Christian Apologetics to discuss, interview, & debate for God's existence, & Christianity. So a child that age, you think its realistic that in the condition that they were brought up, that Mary could have never committed a sin especially as a child? Psalm 132:8 says Arise, Lord, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might. Can you describe the ark?. Christie kicked a successful onside kick, which he recovered himself (becoming the first placekicker ever to do so in an NFL playoff game), and also kicked the game-winning 32-yard field goal in overtime. So Steve would probably say that, Well, Jesus has sins, but there our sins, not his sins. Okay. And this was a dogmatic constitution of the church by Pope Paul VI. And I already cited Greek scholars like Bill Mounce and New Testament scholars, like Richard Bauckham, who agree with me that adelphi has a broader semantic range than what Steve has brought up here. And Catholics are very clear, we do not believe anything that contradicts what we find in sacred Scripture. Both the Old and the New Testaments also use firstborn to indicate firstborn among other siblings, such as Esau being Isaacs firstborn and Ruben as Jacobs first born, meaning they were not firstborns out of their fathers wombs, considering men dont have wombs, but firstborn among their other children. Well, actually one other point I will bring up is that some people say the Bible teaches that Mary sinned, because it describes her going and offering a purification in accord with the Mosaic law. For example, it may be a reference to the minor prophet Zechariah (who was killed in the temple according to the Targum on Lamentations) as opposed to the Zechariah in Chronicles. It only states that Jesus was an exception to this because he had a divine nature, not a sinful nature, as well as a human nature. But anyways, Im going to come back to that. In fact, the Bible often speaks about things like human sinfulness or human mortality as a universal truth and those things really are universal, but it doesnt always mention the exceptions that do occur to these universal rules. Then theres going to be a time of cross-examination, and then were going to do 30 minutes of Q&A. My point was that we should not believe in doctrines that plainly contradict Scripture. So for example, I think Steve is right that the use of the word [inaudible 01:43:59] in Luke 1:28 does not, in and of itself, prove the immaculate conception. Before the 2001 regular season, Christie was placed on IR from an offseason groin injury having accuracy problems during the preseason being replaced by Jake Arians prior to the start of the season. That would be one. So you cant use Matthew 1:25 to prove Mary and Joseph had sexual relations. From 1992 to 2000, Christie kicked for Buffalo. Do you know him? Please join our community. So thats another one. So it is quite shocking. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". Apologetics for the Masses #365 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part II. What we can find in the writings of the Church Fathers, however, are hundreds of citations of the deuterocanonical books as inspired Scripture. The 34-yard field goal came with just :03 seconds to play, lifting the Bills to 4-4 on the season. And I showed that when I cited Acts 21, 25, as well as other examples around the same time period. I mean, today there are Roman Catholics, about 70% of American Catholics that [inaudible 01:32:21] substantiation, let me finish-. Thats just being read into the text. That seems to be something that went without contention. Yes. The Bible does describe a group of people as the brethren of the Lord but it doesnt say that these people were Jesuss biological siblings through Mary. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. One other point that I would raise is that other arguments that Protestants use to try to show that Jesus had brothers simply dont work. I guess, after the New Testament, I guess heres a fun question, which of the church fathers would you be okay with preaching at your church? Just as we have born the image of the earthy we, which includes Mary, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. We and also, which again includes Mary. The wrongs I have done are not hidden from me.. Gary Habermas: The Minimal Facts Approach To The Resurrection (June, 2013) Video Link . Lastly, Psalm 69:8 is a messianic verse, I have become estranged from my brothers and an alien to my mothers sons. Because verse nine begins with for, which is a conjunction, meaning because, since, or therefore, indicating that the same Messiah who would experience zeal for your house in verse nine is also the same Messiah whose mother would have other children in verse eight, which prophesied Jesus younger half brothers not believing in him in John 7:3-5 and dishonoring him in Mark 6:3-4, which occurred earlier in Mark 3:20-21 when they accused Jesus of being out of his senses, just as the future King David rebuked his oldest brother. Now, as I said, we do find this in other roughly contemporary literature. This is really great. Why was she shocked about the enunciation? And weve seen that time and time again, and so Im going to address the other examples that hes just raised. 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